There are 2 important things here.
First thing, he is baiting BJP/Brahmins by saying "lets see if BJP has the courage to place a Brahmin as head of TN BJP". Neither Brahmins, nor BJP should fall for it. Just a hypothetical situation, but a Brahmin as president of TN BJP is problematic in my view, considering today's scene.
Today, there is some non-negligible support for BJP in TN. Most of the supporters are from the groups that had been active supporters of DMK, from, like, beginning.
DMK is so much more than just a political party in ways India does not understand. It is so with everything tamil. Its hard to explain to outsiders. Today, those groups are jumping over to BJP and attacking DMK and Dravidian legacies (ever so selectively, superficially). They are the ones who are neither upper castes in TN, nor lower castes. They are non-Brahmin, non-dalit, but non-influential castes. Dravidian movement was run by the uppermost elite non-Brahmins, for a century. The middle/low ones who are fighting it from BJP today know well that DMK was their home.
By seemingly rallying for Hindutva, Hinduism, brahmins and attacking Dravidian movement for being "anti-Hindu" (which is wrong, but which is what India thinks), they are burying the real truths. They are the only ones who know and can speak the truths of Brahmin hatred in TN, but..by making it an imaginary hindu vs. anti-hindu fight, they are actually trying to bury truths. Because they too were involved. Its like an unpleasant part of their history they don't want to face. They want to kill it, deny it.
Second, more important thing, is to see where this is coming from, not just the things he is saying! Tamil Brahmins have to know and see how Nattukottai Chettiars + Mudaliar + Pillai kept brahmin hatred alive in tamil minds for one hundred years. Non-stop. This is a unique phenomenon. This cannot happen anywhere else in the planet. The persistence of hatred, and the intensity, in tamil public sphere. A random sampling of tamils will not exhibit any significant Brahmin hatred, but...You have to see how Nagarathars + vellalars charged the crowd with their venom of hatred. Tamils are fully emotional creatures, and can be charged, as a crowd. This is a tribal thing. A "tamil public thought" which was filled with the most vitriolic hatred. Not like an explosion...but smoldering silently, for a century. Smoldering hatred, burning hot for one hundred years. How it affected and affects tamils "as a crowd". Nagarathar-Vellalar was present in the tamil mind, in the crowd. They charge the crowd, not individuals.
These millions of talks in public, these stage talks by tens of organizations for decade after decade...these keep alive a certain opinion-world in tamil public thought. A random tamil on the street might not hold significant Brahmin hatred, but Nagarathar-Vellalar venom and hatred lives in the minds of tamil crowds, and it is very very real. Tamil Brahmins have to see that. See the embers. See not only what he is saying, but where it is coming from. This is the group that fed its toxic hatred to tamils for one hundred years, generation after generation. This is the origin of Brahmin hatred in TN, not DMK or DK or Periyar.
Nattukottai Nagarathar + Mudaliar + Pillai
In some of your tweets you mentioned Kumbabishekam is a TN/Tamil phenomenon.
ReplyDeleteIs that really the case?
Isn't it just vile loonies like Sathyavel Murugan who says things like 'thamizhil kudamuzhukku'?
Is there any such thing as Tamil liturgy at all?
We have Bhakthi literature, that is very different and hopelessly mixed up this non-debate.
But AFAI understand there is no such thing as Tamil mantras that imbue divinity and thus service a consecration. The whole concept of AvAhanam, bheeja-aksharams for the mantras are intrinsically Sanskrit. There is no such thing as translating them into Tamil. You might as well translate them into English!
Isn't the whole claim of there existing a Tamil liturgical tradition utterly bogus?
And btw even in Karnataka, Andhra kumbabishekams do happen wherever there are Dravida temples, right ? I mean Dravida not as in the bogus political category, but the architectural style, as opposed to the vesara, nagara. கும்பம் இருந்தா தானே அபிஷேகம் பண்ண முடியும். வடக்க அப்படி கிடையாதே.
I am actually still scratching my head on what exactly the mechanics of how it was done in Kasi Viswanathar temple. I mean structural provisionsஏ இல்லையே. Did they temporarily manufacture something for ritual purposes?
And anyway North Indies temples (as you would know) quite recent and many have no rigorous standards and historical continuity to speak of.
I know this liturgy stuff is not your principal concern and not to be seen standalone.
You say it from the PoV of calling off the bluff of the powers that be who make noises regarding 'Tamil archanai'.
I understand your overall concern about the annoying cluelessness of projecting North Indies Hindutva into the TN politics - where the falsely manufactured faultiness are utterly different.
But yet, insofar as it lends any credence to the claim of there being any such thing as Tamil liturgy - I just want to check if I am under some erroneous impression.
Thanks for your interest. 🙏
DeleteYou are correct about everything. I willl just tell you what I think is the explanation to the questions about tamil liturgy.
If you say tamil liturgical tradition is ineffective from a religious standpoint, u have to say that about the Sanskrit mantras too. There is no such thing as divine. It's all a set of sounds.
But the difference is...the connotations that are attached to those traditions and systems.
The value attached to it by other people, and history of this.
Perceived value is different, actual value is different. Vedas have perceived value. Is it possible for the world to have sprung out of the some egg?
Actual value is functional value within the system. For Tamils/vellalas, tamil traditions have actual value, but they don't have Brand value, i e., perceived value. So, they need to latch on to the sanskritik stuff to increase their perceived value.
Because, when tamil tradition stands next to Vedic/sanskritik stuff, even their own guys won't respect it when they see ஒஸ்தி சரக்கு. So, to win the respect of its own it's crowd, tamil needs to absorb the other things.
But, why are they opposing it? Was it thrust on an unwilling, unsuspecting mass of ppl, like they have been saying?
Or, was it them who absorbed sans./vedic into their system? It's obviously the latter.
So whats the beef now? 🤔 And why have they blaming the other?
See, Nagarathar-Vellalar (Dravidian) movement is entirely made up of non-issues and false alarms. Pillai Rajavel once said "திராவிடம் கொலைக்கிற நாய், கடிக்கிற நாய் இல்ல". Thats it! Simple.
If they indeed do a thani thamil of periya puranam and agamas, they will be left with something, but that something will not have value amongst their own people. They will themselves have no respect for it.
It's a false alarm.
They use it as a device for their hate campaign. To make it sound as if it was a real issue, as if there was a real grievance that was caused by Brahmins. But there is none.
If they do change it, and purge tamil of Sanskrit...they xould have done it a hundred years back. Brahmins never forced themselves upon Tamils. தமிழ் லோ சரக்கு இல்ல. அதுக்கு தேவை, அதுவா எடுத்துக்குச்சு. It's a non-issue. If they wanted to change, they xould have changed it long back. It's in their hands only.
The (non-)issue a conduit for t
their hate.
What we have to be more scared of is if they separate tamil Brahmins from it,and say "இதெல்லாம் நீயா எழுதின? இதெல்லாம் உன்னுதா? நீ 1000 வருஷமா இங்க தான் இருக்க. உன்ன கேட்டு தான் இதெல்லாம் தொடனுமா? போடா"
They have been speaking of Brahmins as the representatives of Sanskrit, vedas, Hinduism, india, etc. They can also shift that.
என்ன காரணம் சொல்லி அடிக்கிறான் என்பது கேள்வி இல்ல. Thats only a conduit for hate. ஏன் அடிக்கிறான், அது தான் மேட்டர்.
இங்க சமஸ்/இந்து மதம் வேண்டாத னு சொல்லிட்டு வட இந்தியா காரன் கூட பல்ல இலிச்சுட்டு தீவிர இந்துவா இருந்துட்டான் னா?
ஏனா இந்தியா காரனுக்கு குரங்கு இங்க நூறு வருஷம் என்ன ஆட்டம் போட்ருக்கு னு தெரியாது ல?
They can oppose it all here, and then eat it all. Nobody can ask.
Thank You.
DeletePosted a comment that seems to have disappeared :-/
Retyping concisely.
I am not sure if I agree 'barking dog won't bite' is applicable.
It may not bite on those very terms, but it is certainly nibbling away.
The AKR report on 'temple reforms' is an example. It is deceitfully cloaked in 'progressive' language but it is a calculated assault on the traditional by disincentivizing rigour.
I do know you feel that the anti-Brahmin animus in TN is so deep that the silent majority isn't unaware but merely pretending to be so, and in a pinch, will not just condone but also express bigotry. I have had some sobering realisations on these lines of late. I mean, I knew some things, but overrated the decency of many. The ascendancy of Bajpa was used a pretext by many folks I knew to uninhibitedly express foul unhinged bigotry, under the cover of SocJust.
/What we have to be more scared of is if they separate tamil Brahmins from it,and say "இதெல்லாம் நீயா எழுதின? இதெல்லாம் உன்னுதா? நீ 1000 வருஷமா இங்க தான் இருக்க. உன்ன கேட்டு தான் இதெல்லாம் தொடனுமா? போடா"/
Why is this scary? I don't get it.
Once when driving through Ayyampettai - a DK hotbed since forever - I saw a flex poster for MuKa that screamed 'சமஸ்கிருதத்தை அழித்தவனே'.
The content itself is nonsensical. But it is instructive to see how they know that saying this will puff up the chest of the target reader. This narrative of 'clashing inimical cultures' is utterly venomous. So wouldn't it actually be a good thing if this embraced?
What am I missing?
Do you mean the rise of prohitars, archakars in nonBrahmin castes? would be a cause for concern insofar as it breaches the final bastion?
Let me give a counterexample of Kerala. The priests from all castes news that created a flutter didn't happen out of nowhere. It was not thrust from above by 'Godless' communists or 'Christian' Congress. It is from generations of reverential learning of traditions and commitment. It does not come from a place of bad-faith at all. That kind of thing makes it easier to accept as a 'change with the times'.
Let me also state I am ambivalent about it, insofar as there is any contradiction with Agamic injections. But this hugely contrasts with the bad-faith driven process/environment of TN.
/ஏனா இந்தியா காரனுக்கு குரங்கு இங்க நூறு வருஷம் என்ன ஆட்டம் போட்ருக்கு னு தெரியாது ல?/
Few things are more annoying than the North Indies illiteracy about TN and repeatedly projecting the Hindu v non-Hindu framework here and expressing befuddlement.
In one interview when repelling the charge that he was sympathetic to 'saffron' , Kamalhassan said 'any party that wishes to be in TN will HAVE to be Dravidian'.
Of course he said it as if it was a good thing! But it is the single most lucid observation that encapsulates the politics hereabouts. It doesn't matter if you are Congress, Marxists, Dalit Parties or even (and especially!) the BJP - the faultiness you have to operate on are immutable.
You mean if, instead of opposing and fighting sanskritisation, they embrace it, isnt that a good thing? This line of thought still has vestiges of that hindu/anti-hindu mindset. I don't have anything against that, but we are still not reading straight from the ground. We depend on such readymade stereotypes and paradigms because we are not looking at the ground. If we start noticing the micro tectonic shifts at ground reality level, we will be better at doing 'hinduism'.
Deleteநீங்க மனுச உலகத்தில் இருந்து மனுஷ அறிவே வெச்சே யோசிக்கிறீங்க. கொஞ்சம் evolutionஐ உதறி தள்ளி லெமூரிய உலகத்துக்குள்ள வாங்க. அது வேதம்/புராணம்/இந்து மதத்தை திம்பது என் பிரச்சனை இல்லை.
ஆனால்...அது இந்து மதத்தை completely embrace செய்து விட்டால்..பார்ப்பன வெறுப்பு நின்று விடும், பிரச்சனை தீர்ந்ததே என்று சொல்லுவது...it is still under the assumption that 'anti-hindu' ness is the main problem.
They (or rather, the voice of politics of TN) have been opposing vedas/brahmins/hinduism, but watch closely. They have been sanskritising all along. Whatever the politics said it is opposing, the people were imbibing with greater and greater gusto. Read the vellala dog jeyamohan pillai discuss it in their website -> https://swarajyamag.com/culture/am-i-a-hindu.
I have been saying. Chettiar-Mudaliar-Pillai (dravidian) movement is made up entirely of non-issues, and false alarms.
They said, they mouthed "I don't want it. I will vehemently oppose anybody who tries to impose it on me", but that was for the stage alone. In reality, tamil dogs have been embracing hinduism and sanskritisation all along.
So, now the question arises. If you are going to eat it all anyways, then why oppose me for it? எதை சொல்லி நம் மீது வெறுப்பு விஷத்தை உமிழ்ந்தது என்பாது பிரச்சினை இல்லை. The fact of that hate is the problem. ஒரு நூற்றாண்டு நகரத்தார்-வெல்லலாளர் தூண்டுதலில் கீழான தமிழ் இனம் நம் மீது வெறுப்பு விஷத்தை அமிழ்து வருது. அது தான் பிரச்சினை.
The tamil dog spews hate on us for imposing caste system and inequality on it via hinduism/brahminism/god, etc, and then, goes on to imbibe those same things.
If we ask "u shameless fellow. u were pouring napalm on me for imposing them on u. ur eating it now?"
Only then will it say "இதெல்லாம் நீயா எழுதின? இதெல்லாம் உன்னுதா? நீ 1000 வருஷமா இங்க தான் இருக்க. உன்ன கேட்டு தான் இதெல்லாம் தொடனுமா? போடா".
i.e., tamils want to have no loss. They don't want to have any consequences for doing a hundred years of hate. They will oppose, but eat it all the same. So, the hate on me was for the purpose of hate. The reason was lame.
அது எடுத்து திண்ணனும் நா நம்ம கிட்ட கேட்க வேண்டாம். நம்மால் அதை இந்து மதத்தை எடுத்து திம்பதை நினைத்தாலும் தடுக்க முடியாது. அப்படி இருக்கையில், அதை திணித்ததற்காக நம்மை ஏன் எதிர்க்கனும் ?
U cannot grasp it if u don't enter lemurian world.
அங்க "வேண்டாம்" னு சொன்னது நாடகம். நாம "சரி ஓத்தா வேண்டாம் னு சொன்ன ல, சாப்பிடாத, போ" னு சொன்னா..."இதெல்லாம் உங்க அப்பனுதா என்ன? போடா" னு சொல்லிடும்.
சாப்பிட தான் போகுதுன்னா அதுக்காக நம்மை எதிர்த்திருக்க வேண்டாம் ல? அதால் நம்மை என்ன வேணா செய்ய முடியும். இல்லாததும் ஒரு நூற்றாண்டு நம் மேல் விஷம் உமிழ முடியும். நம்மால் இருப்பதை ஒரு நொடி கூட சொல்ல முடியாது. நம்மால் அதை ஒண்ணுமே செய்ய முடியாது.
More importantly, #drav and Brahmin hate happened within a certain 'frame'. BJP's hindu vs anti-hindu is another frame. Palli, saanan, konan and tamil dogs are jumping into the new frame. From the frame, they will actively block any allusion or acknowledgment of the old 'frame' because that is their past. They will try to erase it by sticking hard to only 'hindu vs anti-hindu'. Indian retards too talk only that. India doesn't know the other side of these lemurs, and the lemurs will play many games to divert India's attention.
Im scared because they would have entered a new frame, and refused to own up their old frame, their actions on #drav stage for a century. They would have done a century of hate without any consequences, and without having to lose all those things they had been opposing. Opposition was a false alarm. They need everything.
DeleteI have been having some ideas about privilege equations, and sanskritisation in my head. Will try to pen them down in some time. Briefly...This is still the old setup. If vanniyar/nadar/konar/goundar perform the final breach, a new wave would have ushered in. It would mean that the centuries old privilege of chettiar/vellala etc is finally gone. #drav did defiance of brahminism and caste rules because breach was imminent. If they themselves ceded space, they could have gotten the support of those lower caste groups. It had become a quid pro quo. The lower castes who entered a new band didnt say "but u were the very ones who oppressed us" because it would have served no purpose for them. They wanted only social mobility. They did the bidding of those above them, i.e., work in #drav, aid in their Brahmin hate. They don't care about truth. They are working for social mobility.
This is a next phase for them. They had been sanskritising all along, but in addition to #drav. Now, they are trying to ditch #drav. Previously, about 7-12 % of the society said to the remaining 85-90% of the society "there is great danger to you from 3%. we will save you from 3%". Saying so, they kept recreating the brahmin ghost. But due to democracy and trickling down of economic benefits, now, about 20% is empowered, and its pushing the old guys. It is refusing to do the bidding of the old guys.
A new frame happened in the first few decades of 20th century too. When nagarathar/vellalar/balija/maravar diluted *their own* caste rules, and started denouncing Brahminism. Why did they do this?
It's a very important thing. Proximity to 'brahmin' was how hierarchy was set up and maintained. The #1 didnt say "im #1, ur all below me".
The #2's created and perpetuated notions of somebody being #1, then appointed themselves as #2, then told the society "see that guy, he is the topmost caste in the society, and I AM THE #2. ALL OF YOU ARE BELOW ME"!!!
#1 & #2 are a package. The #2's created a hierarchy and placed themselves as #2 in order to remain #2. Otherwise, they would have slipped to #3, #8, #6 etc. They would have been subject to fluctuations. Even now, if u notice, they have been only perpetuating notions of Brahmin superiority, by opposing it!!
Invoking and reinforcing Brahmin superiority...by opposing it! Because, their own superiority in caste hierarchy is tied to brahmin superiority.
At the start of last century they loosened up their own rules because they saw that storm was coming. Nadars formed groups and 'mahamai's just like the chettiars. They saw that the lower caste guys were demanding for more and more space, and that they had the might to take this space
So...in the temple, there was the brahmin in the cockpit, elites just outside, so on and so forth in descending order of caste...the dalit outside the temple. They had maintained this hierarchy. But they saw that soon the ones lower than them will come and stand next to them, outside the cockpit.
They didnt want that. That is why they denounced god/brahmins/hinduism itself!! Because equality was about to be established. Notice how only the elites spoke of caste annihilation. Once, I saw on ve.mathimaran's fb wall on his b'day "பெரியாரை தவிர்த்து சாதி ஒழிப்பு செய்பவர்களுக்கு சிம்ம சொப்பனமாக இருப்பவரே".
அதாவது...சாதி ஒழிப்பு பண்ணணும்னாலே நகரத்தார்-வெள்ளாளர் (திராவிட) வழி ல தான் பண்ணி ஆகணும். அதான் twitterல அந்த north madras சாமியார் clip கூட போட்டேன் "நீ கடவுள் இல்ல னு சொல்லி சாதிய அழிக்க பாக்குற. நா அத சொல்லமையே சாதிய அழைக்கிறேன்".
ஏனெனில் அவன் நோக்கம் சாதிய ஒழிப்பதே இல்ல. கடவுள் இல்ல னு சொல்லி சாதி ஒழிப்பு செய்வது...
கடவுள் இல்ல னு சொல்லி சாதி ஒழிப்பு செய்வது...ஒண்ணுமே பண்ணாம சாதி ஒழிப்பு போராளியை மாற. பார்ப்பனீயத்தை எதிர்த்துட்டா போதும். போராளி.
DeleteThey denounced their own temple entry, casteism as if to say "இதுவரை கோயில் ல நா நின்ன எடத்துலேயே இப்ப நீ நின்னா நீ எனக்கு சமமாகி விட மாட்ட".
Notice how only the elites were leading "caste annihilation, social justice". Its a subtler way of maintaining the same old hierarchy. The elites show the way.
Something similar seems to be happening. palli/saanan/konan/goundan ditching #drav means the old hierarchies are dying. The lower castes have forged new places for themselves and finally outgrown the old elites. Now, they don't serve them. This phase of sanskritisation is a new thing. So, the older guys will resist it. That is why they are trying to rescind their own HRCE drama. Because that is a symbol of their status quo. They are scoffing at new money, saying "even if the quantity is greater, u dont have the greatness of old money". They want to show that they are gethu. If the lower guys stay in #drav, the elites will display their magnanimity by giving them space there. If the lower guys find their own politics, the elites shut their temple doors. They know that the new guys cannot build anything like that. The money is more, but so is the denominator.
கருவறை ல பாப்பான், நா அதுக்கு வெளியே, நீ எனக்கும் வெளிய இருந்த. அப்புறம், நீ எனக்கு பக்கத்துல எனக்கு சரிசமமா நிக்க ஆசைப்பட்ட. அதனால் நா கோயிலுக்கு வெளிய போயிட்டு "கடவுளே இல்ல டா போடா, பாப்பான், இந்து மதம், கடவுள், எல்லாமே fraudனு சொன்னேன். அதாவது "நீ அங்க நின்னா நீ எனக்கு சமமாகிவிட மாட்ட.". Basically ditiching the old standard of defining hierarchy by proximity to 'Brahmin' or கருவறை, since today, u have my position there. I won't allow you to be my equal.
If the lower castes forge their own politics and break free from the elites, the elites will pack up their HRCE drama and enforce casteism again, maybe. Tie up with the feudal castes to weaken the middling castes, maybe. In any case, temples are props showing their superiority in caste ladder.
Im scared of changes of 'frame' because it becomes hard to show what all have been done in the previous frame. The air tends to become thick with propaganda, and the newbies will draw fences around the new frame, and keep it strictly to that alone. They will not talk about the old ones at all. If they do, they will only cover irrelevant stuff. The 100-yr old frauds and hate will never come out.
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This is one thing. Another thing is...u say "isn't it a good thing if they sanskritize?"
The roman empire once ruled most of europe, and vaste swathes in middle east. There was a roman culture. Then, there were the indigenous cultures of the conquered lands. They 'romanized' these new acquisitions. "whether to romanize or not" was an important question. If you read about it, you will see more depth in the expression'to be a roman in rome' than you saw before. Romanizing was a way to move up the hierarchy, for the newcomers. It was also a way for rome to keep the territories glued to it.
Lets say sanskritisation is similar to romanization. You say "in order to save hinduism, isnt it good if everyone boards the sanskritisation wagon? they will defend hinduism". This is, again, from the hindu/anti-hindu perspective. Sanskritisation is good from this perspective, to fight anti-hindu and anti-india forces. But...what makes u think that once they come within the circle of 'hinduism', they will cease to be a problem, to you, personally? You are making it more cramped. There is you, a few friends, neutrals, and enemy. You say, lets make friends out of neutrals, so we are stronger to attack the enemy. But...why is the enemy the enemy? what does he do to you? plunder you? conquer your lands and humiliate you? What if the neutral as a friend, inside your circle, is a much bigger headache than an enemy, whom you only have to fight once in a while? sanskritisation is like membership to a club. it used to be an elite club once. now, u want to stand at the railway station, and sell it to the crowd. to solve which problem are you suggesting sanskritisation of masses as a solution? they are problems of friction between layers. they exist everywhere.
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DeleteYour absence in Twitter is disappointing. Use this for OTP verification (Temporary virtual phone number). Kindly share your koo id. People can follow you there. Stay safe !!!!
Delete/நீங்க மனுச உலகத்தில் இருந்து மனுஷ அறிவே வெச்சே யோசிக்கிறீங்க. கொஞ்சம் evolutionஐ உதறி தள்ளி லெமூரிய உலகத்துக்குள்ள வாங்க. /
LOL
I think I understand. Let me try to essentialize. You can correct me if I've got it wrong.
Your concern is, the D-elite will keep the passionate hatred alive and port over to a new framework deftly hiding the ravages done for a century in the D framework and an entire next gen would adopt the new framework without even knowing what happened. Am I right?
Makes sense. And yes it is concerning.
Btw ellAraiyum dog dog-nA எப்படிங்க. இருக்குற வெகு சில முக்கா கை பனியனையும் திட்றீங்க!
Not trying to police your tone in your blog. உங்க வயல், உங்க வரப்பு.
Just saying, Jeyamohan is a hyper-articulate writer of both the philosophical highs and functional modes of Hinduism. While he does tend to drum up the 'Christian missionary' spectre a bit too much (which is in consonance with Hindutva) he surely is not someone who simplistically assumes a anti-Hindu narrative is what is at work in Dravidaland. He is among the clearest of contemporary mainstream voices in observing the 'landed elite' nature of D which is simultaneously anti-Brahmin and anti-Harijan. He said that it was a feature and not a bug, very very early. It is a commonplace observation now but it was not that clear in public discourse when he began saying it.
The article you quoted (I've read the original in his blog) is answering a particular question and is not his entire read of the TN political situation. Even standalone on the particular issue at hand, it does not strike me as off-key.
Of course, YMMV.
/ tamil dogs
தமிழ் இனம் நம் மீது
/
Again these things...
By accepting, even for the sake of argument, the 'Tamil v Brahmin' bogus duality you are already yielding ground to the huge political fraud, aren't you?
There is no such thing as a Tamil identity composed of an umbrella of non-brahmin castes. It is an utter fraud perpetrated on the public for over a century. By adopting the terminology, even ஒரு பேச்சுக்கு, is quite detrimental to discourse.
I'd rather go:
தமிழன் என்றோர் இனமில்லை/ தனியே அவர்க்கோர் குணமில்லை
And say:
தமிழன் X பிராமணன் என்ற எதிர்வை
நம்புகிறவன் - முட்டாள்
பரப்புபவன் - அயோக்கியன்
அதை வைத்து பலன் அநுபவிப்பவன் - மகா மகா அயோக்கியன்.
But I do understand you feel things are beyond fixing with these cute-sie aphorisms.
Interesting theory on coupling Brahmin-hate and proximity to Brahmin.
I know you feel strongly enough to even boycott Tamil temples! That is THE ஸ்தூலமான cultural connection. Everything else is in the realm of ideas. Such a boycott, cutting away, makes inordinate demands that many like me would be quite unequal to.
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/isn't it a good thing if they sanskritize?
Deletein order to save hinduism, isnt it good if everyone boards the sanskritisation wagon? they will defend hinduism"/
No. No. Let me clarify.
I am not advocating Sanskritization as THE direction to proceed for all castes. In fact, insofar as it snuffs out the inherent variety and engenders a sort of unitariness, it somewhat erodes an core differentiating aspect of Hinduism.
I am only musing 'why should Sanskritization - specifically learning the liturgy etc. be cause for concern'. Your wording sounded very gatekeeper-ish.
I now understand your concern that the porting over without acknowledging the wreckage caused in the earlier framework is problematic.
/to solve which problem are you suggesting sanskritisation of masses as a solution?/
I am not at all advocating Sanskritization as a solution. I was only wondering why you think it would worsen the situation.
That is why I brought up example of all-caste priests in Kerala v TN. The former case has a more natural revolution and is rooted in tradition. The inclusiveness is genuine. In TN we have a stinker of environment soaked in bad-faith and viciousness.
In an environment where a proper mediation is possible, Sanskritization itself should not be problematic. But I guess it is a chicken-and-egg situation!
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My problem with jayakanthan/mohan types is that they don't add much value. They simply get to become the good guys by acknowledging the truth. of what use is that? They know that their vellalas dogs built Brahmin hate, and they know that its not going to stop. They are taking that stance purely for establishing their own name as clean, good guys. If we r sto stupid to not even know that zamindars/chettiar/mudaliar built #drav and brahmin hate, we can thank them for acknowledging those things.. But they dn't add value. They are probably having a hearty laugh inside on seeing brahmins kadharals.
Delete// I know you feel strongly enough to even boycott Tamil temples! That is THE ஸ்தூலமான cultural connection. Everything else is in the realm of ideas. Such a boycott, cutting away, makes inordinate demands that many like me would be quite unequal to.//
psst...பெரியார் நிறைய விஷயம் சொல்லுவாராம். ஆனா சாதாரண மக்களால் அதை எல்லாத்தையும் ஏத்துக்க முடியாதாம். அவ்ளோ புரட்சிகரமானது. ஆனா, அவரு பேசட்டும், அதுல என்ன இருக்கு? மக்களுக்கு எது வேணுமோ, அதை எடுத்துக்காட்டும். பேச கூடாதுனு சொன்னா எப்படி? பெரியார் தமிழர்களை திட்டுவது பூனை தன் குட்டியை கடிக்கிற மாதிரி. ஒன்னும் ஆகாது. மற்றவர்கள் தமிழர்களை திட்டுவது பூனை எலியை கடிக்கிற மாதிரி (a straight lift of an allegory ramakrishna paramahamsa used to repeat often).
//I am only musing 'why should Sanskritization - specifically learning the liturgy etc. be cause for concern'. Your wording sounded very gatekeeper-ish.
//
I dont care about handing over liturgy to non-brahmins. If u see...if the priests of meenakshi temple, adi saiva sivachariar who filed a case against DMK in 2006, are not brahmins...then most of the priesthood whom we think to be brahmins, are already not so!! So, the 'handing over' has already happened. I of course have a prob is ppl try to change their caste after becoming priests.
//I am not at all advocating Sanskritization as a solution. I was only wondering why you think it would worsen the situation.
//
The balloon would burst. I think, for hindutva, the idea is to create a caste/group in every place that would remain loyal to hinduism and conservative values/political structure. This is probably a cautious preparation for an emergency scenario. I agree with it, too. But i believe it needs to be done strategically. I dont know how that is done, though.
Pls read this long and difficult article about romanization and creolization, if you have the patience and inclination -> https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_ANNA_592_0287--questioning-romanization.htm.
Apparently, romanization was "negotiation among the elites."
Or, read this shorter, easier article -> https://leylaroksancaglar.github.io/Caglar_2011.pdf
Romanization always started with the elites, and flowed to the peasants and lower castes, if it did, from the elites.
Also, in those days, those conquered/annexed regions, must have had something to gain from rome. Because all other states were barbaric, and rome was the center of civilization, so they gained a lot by being in touch with that. That is not the case here with sanskritisation. That great incentive is absent.
So, romanization happened between elites, and flowed from elites to others. Why and when does acculturation of lower classes happen?
Jizya was lower for poorer people. Why? The poorer, marginalized, would already be in discontent with the rulers/dominant powers. So, the invaders coaxed the lower castes to rebel against the upper castes, or to be on their side, as they fought with the dominant forces.
That is what hindutva is doing. But empowering lower groups, it is creating a tension with the dominant groups. Acculturation should happen with elites. We should leave their fights to them, and interfere only if one of them goes too far. This is for emergency scenarios.
so, sanskritisation is needed, but it needs to be done strategically in order to avoid brushings between groups, but at the same time achieve reach in society.
Btw a separate question: was there a caste alignment underlying the Kamaraj v INC split in TN Congress?Recently saw an interview of some Tirunelveli Brahmin uncle who claimed to be Kamaraj's lackey.
ReplyDeleteIn that he kinda மழுப்பிfied the question about the extent to which Kamaraj believed the DK's anti-Brahmin spiel.As reverential as he was about Kamaraj, he just couldn't deny the charge. It was quite telling.
And then he went on to allege that Nellai Kannan - who talks as if he had a direct hotline to Kamaraj - is someone whom Kamaraj simply didn't know!And, more importantly, he belonged to the India clique (Moopanar) who were anti-Kamaraj. So I was wondering if there was an underlying caste alignment in the Congress split in the attempt to wrest control away from Kamaraj.
Can u post link of tht interview pls? My twitter account got suspended. Im probably going to be scattered on the internet. Maybe good in a way but that account had so much info :(.
DeleteThere *always* was a caste alignment within congress. A.O.Hume was the founder of the INC and he was a theosophist at the time he did. The theosophical movt was important both for the congress, and for indian nationalism itself, in its early days. Read this- > https://escholarship.org/content/qt73b4862g/qt73b4862g.pdf?t=lnpu5r
Not just in Kamaraj's time, not just today, there was *always* caste factionalism within the dravidian party called Tamilnad Congress. The mudaliars (and, I believe, the nadars too) were specifically in it to destroy it from within. As do-bashis, they had been aiding the british for a couple of generations. The British probably orchestrated their counter to INC. Its obvious, and they have stated this too. Read it - > https://www.periyarbooks.in/blog/the-non-brahmin-manifesto-english/ under the heading 'PROGRESSIVE POLITICAL DEVELOPMENT WANTED AND NOT UNAUTHORIZED CONSTITUTION - MAKING'.
NBM refers to the nationalistic, freedom-seeking part of the congress in which brahmins were active, and to counter which the Dravidian Movement and Periyar were forged, in the first place.
Like Amargov/vellalas quietly pocketing Rajajis Swarajyamag and speaking in hindutvaspeak TODAY, the mudaliars pretend to be real 'congress'men.
Nadars rode the INC bandwagon for social mobility. They used all means they could. Still do. Their presence in RSS/RW is for social mobility/space.
Periyar brought Kamaraj using the kula kalvi lie, and he supported palli/saanans all his life. In Congress from 1954 to 1969, and in DMK from 1969 to 1973. It was not out of love for them, but because they were his loyal slaves, and he needed their support to make his legacy and cult live.
But it was chettiar/mudaliar/pillai who forged the mega cult called 'Periyar'. Without this, Venkatappa was just a vijayakanth or vaiko. The man was probably a buffoon. So, periyar being created by chettiar/vellalas, but supporting their enemies/troublemakers palli/saanan?
Definitely sounds contradictory and incoherent, at a glance. But, thats the reality. Its complex, and multi-layered.
My theory is...the old elite - Nagarathar/Vellalar/Mudaliar/Balija saw that empowerment of lower castes was an inevitability. It was just a matter of time. Their efforts were only to delay the breaking of the dam. It was bound to happen.
The upward surging lower castes were like a storm. So, they probably thought that this surge and fight for space is going to happen anyways, whether or not periyar is on their side. They only lose energy by fighting.
So, when Periyar was on their side, they could keep their brainchild, the dravidian sociopolitical worldview, and the 'Periyar' cult intact. There was only gain in it.
Reg kamaraj pretending to be unaware of Nagarathar-Vellalar (dravidian) movt's brahmin hate...it is unreal, the level to which tamil dogs will go to distort reality, and fool us with fake stances. Just see the pallis, saanans, konans in BJP today. They dont want to talk about anything but hindu and anti-hindu. There is no kamaraj without Periyar and Dravidam. Kamaraj was not exactly a puppet in the hands of the elites like stalin is, but he was not the man who had the final word. A lot was not in his hands. And I don't expect nadars to sympathise with that, too. Their lot was very bad even in 1950's.
And it is most likely that kamaraj was forced to resign, in 1962/3. I have not dug into that, but i can see the dots. The mudaliars in DMK were probably fuming. After 8-12 yrs, they would fume a hell lot more, and form ADMK.
Brahmin hate was always from chettiar/mudaliar/pillai. they gave it to saanan and konan.
/Can u post link of tht interview pls?/
DeleteHere you go:
காமராஜருக்கு நெல்லை கண்ணன் ஐ தெரியாது
It was interesting to note that the NK who trumpets his association with KK, allegedly had no personal interaction with him and was in the opposite camp.
Hence, given NK's brazen casteist trumpeting on stage, I was wondering if INC v KK split had an upper-caste alignment against Nadar-empowering KK. The landed caste leaders like Bhaktavatsalam, his BIL OV Alagesan, CS , Mohan Kumaramangalam (and Brahmin RV) went to INC. So at first glance, it looks like an elite caste re-takeover. But those who stayed in NCO seem to be next-level leaders of all castes. So it is not clear. Must ask some old-timers.
/My twitter account got suspended./
உலகத்துலயே என்னை எல்லாம் ஒரு பொருட்டா மதிச்சு block பண்ண ஒரே ஆள் நீங்க தான் :-)
Hope you get access to your threads and archive in this blog.
/There *always* was a caste alignment within congress./
Yes. I've read your writings on twitter and here so am aware of the dots you connect. In the section you quoted in the NBManifesto (பெரிய Engels-Marx ரேஞ்சு!) they say in so many words that 'all was well in Cong too till the Brahmins took over'. The words:
" will soon reassert their mastery over the Congress machine, and direct it in strict accordance with the living realities of the present"
are quite telling.
Even assuming in good faith - that they thought in 1918 that they represented the 'lived realities' that Congress with the then 'brahmin leadership' was out of touch with - these words mean nothing given how in every single election where the Congress contested, JP was decimated.
I am not sold, at least not yet, on your assertion of it all being conscious machinations of the Brits to undermine the Congress from within. I am more inclined to think on the lines that RCI says - that it is the bristling of the landed feudal elite who didn't see that the writing on the wall re. modernism. That seething continues unabated and takes new forms and feeds on itself with swathes swallowing propoganda.
I am not dismissing your interpretations as far-fetched. Just my general reluctance towards conspiracy theories.Specifically, I don't think the adoption of Hindutvaspeak for social mobility is insincere scheming. It has a lot to do with what may be the differentiator today for some castes in a space where Dravideology loses sheen. Plus local reasons, like in Nagercoil etc.
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Delete/Periyar brought Kamaraj using the kula kalvi lie/
As you know, KK did not need CR post the Andhra split. Hence the backstabbing, which made CR bitter enough to do what he eventually did.
Having said that, one must also consider the fact that things were probably in a bit of a boil and CR didn't have the political heft, let alone personal charisma, to afford bull-headedness. Rather than sink with him, KK found it opportune to cut losses as CR was expendable anyway. So, as nastily guilty as he was in being responsible for CR being misremembered to this date, there were a bunch of factors that politically made sense from KK's PoV then. I wouldn't reduce it all to casteism. To use the MK dialogue: சுயநலத்தில் பொதுநலமும் கலந்திருந்தது !
/ he needed their support to make his legacy and cult live/
Yes. I have noted this point you have made repeatedly. It was news to me. I will try and read up about it.
/Definitely sounds contradictory and incoherent, at a glance. But, thats the reality. Its complex, and multi-layered.
......
So, when Periyar was on their side, they could keep their brainchild, the dravidian sociopolitical worldview, and the 'Periyar' cult intact. There was only gain in it./
This is the kind of thing which I am not sure of.
It attributes a feeling of conscious groupthink as opposed to an evolution of political process.
For instance, Prof.T.Dharumaraj - an Ayothidasarite (yes, that's a thing now!) - wrote a review of 'M.S.S.Pandian's book Brahmin and Non-Brahmin: Genealogies of the Tamil Present. In that, he shredded the utter emptiness of Dravideology then weirdly going on to assert that an Ayothidasarian vantage is more authentic. (ஓப்பனிங் எல்லாம் நல்லாத்தான் இருக்கு...
There he says this:
"Corporations not only manufacture rebels, but choose from among them and permit them to spread rumors and oppositional voices. Corporations are able to monitor and control dissident voices this way. That is how Periyar was produced. Brahmanism enjoyed his talk; but only his talk. And after Periyar, brahmins have still not bestowed the privilege of being a rebel against the system upon anybody else."
This struck me as very bizzare. Enjoyed? My left foot!
But the first part of the claim: that EVR was the 'permitted rebel' is a point I'd muse on. Except that, the powers that permitted the rebelling were not the Brahmins but the landed elite. To that extent, I agree with your theory that he was a chosen rebel who could function both as part of a Dravida in-group (as opposed to a loose cannon like Ayothidasar) and capture the narrative of the upwardly mobile lowest castes, that was happening anyway (heck it happened everywhere not just in TN!).
Just that I am reluctant to think it was a scheming plot consciously hatched by members of the D elite castes. That reluctance owes somewhat to the fact that it terminologically resembles the D terminology/worldview of பார்ப்பனச்சதி.
/Reg kamaraj pretending to be unaware of Nagarathar-Vellalar (dravidian) movt's brahmin hate...it is unreal/
No no. I didn't mean KK claimed to be unaware of that.
The interviewer asked KK's lackey if KK himself subscribed to anti-brahmin hatred. It was telling that the interviewee was unable to deny even that :-)
/And it is most likely that kamaraj was forced to resign, in 1962/3/Oh as in the Kamaraj-Plan isn't what it is?!Interesting. Will look forward to what you have to say.
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Delete/Brahmin hate was always from chettiar/mudaliar/pillai. they gave it to saanan and konan./
One gent whom you used to cross-swords with on twitter made a sagely suggestion to Annamalai.'You are one of us. We won't vote for your party as you don't represent our interests. Put your head down and work. But don't be the public face - send Raja and Raghavan for that'
அதாவது 'நீ நல்ல பேர் வாங்குற மாதிரி ஏதாவது backoffice வேலை பண்ணு. Public கிட்ட தர்மடி வாங்குறதுக்கு அவங்களை அனுப்பு'
Exactly on the lines of how you theorized things work.
"நம்ம பய நீ, சூதானமா புது ஃப்ரேம்வொர்க்ல ஆக வேண்டிய வேலையைப் பாரு. அடிவாங்குறதுக்கு தான் பிராமணர்களை நேர்ந்து விட்டிருக்கோமே அவனை அனுப்பு" அப்படின்னு வெளிப்படையா சொல்ற மாதிரி இருக்கு discourse நிலைமை :D
P.S: Just saw you have posted a bunch of comments. Thank You. I will read and absorb over the weekend.
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In your vid, see from 16:40 - 17:10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDb9cnKoCr4 . He says that "Congress" was opposed to Communists, but took no efforts to oppose DK/DMK. Guess why?
DeleteBecause the same old mudaliars were active inside Congress. It was 'Congress' only in name. It was the same old Chettiar/Vellala Balija Naidus leading vanniyar/nadar et al both in Congress, as well as DK/DMK. I believe the elites "allowed" Kamaraj's cult to be built because they saw that nadars were very very desirous of upward social mobility. They were ready to disrupt anything and everything. So, they upper and lower shudras arrived at a quid pro quo. I posted on Twitter how #drav is slowly unscrewing kamaraj because the nadars are dancing to much.
We don't need so many dots to construct a narrative, as far as #drav- 'Congress' relationship is concerned. Just one fact will do.'
PERIYAR SUPPORTED 'CONGRESS' FOR 15 FUCKING YEARS!!!!
Just imagine. 'Periyar', and Dravidian Movt were tools forged by the mudaliars/chettiars at the behest of the British in order to defeat Congress's efforts at freedom struggle. Periyar, who was the weapon forged to wreck congress before independence, supporting that very same 'Congress' for 15 years...isn't this one single point enough to show that 'Congress' was a Dravidian Party since 1954? In fact, it always was, except for, like 40 yrs in 1st half of 20th century. Perumal Varadarajulu Naidu and Thiru.Vi.Ka were in ' Congress' all their life.
I saw this on quora and this seems to explain why Dravidam is so successful in TN
ReplyDeletehttps://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-Tamilians-dislike-Sundar-Pichai-and-Ramanujam
I am Tamilian and I dislike them too. It is not to say that all Tamilians dislike them, some are proud of these people too. However, before I answer the question, I would like to let you know that please appreciate my honesty in answering this question. Other people will not dare say the truth. So, why we dislike them?
Envy - We feel envious that almost all great men from Tamil Nadu were Tamil Brahmins - Ramanujam, C V Raman, Subrahmaniam Chandrashekhar, Manoj Night Shyamlan, Sundar Pichai, and many more in films, art, and politics. Also, many Tamil Brahmins manage to crack IIT and medical schools easily, and they occupy many R & D positions. This makes us feel inferior, and invokes jealousy in some of us. I wish there were more of other Tamilains making it to the very top. We are constantly reminded of their success and superiority, and how am I suppose to feel motivated about my shot at success when very few from my caste have made it big. This invoked serious envy and dislike for those sucessful brahmins.
Looks - Tamil brahmins, on an average look better than us Tamilians. This makes us feel that, even if they are nobel prize winners, that are NOT one of US. Their looking different and better makes many of us Tamilians very upset.
Anti-Brahmin propaganda- Even though when you personally meet them, many brahmins tend to be very nice and compassionate people, however, please understand that when you are born in upper caste, you are taught to be nice by your parents. Hence, them being nice and compassionate is LEARNED from parents and not inherent in genes. So, many of us feel justified when anti-brahmin propaganda is promoted by Tamil politicians, even when they may be nice at personal level.
I know many people will dislike the truth that I said here. But, I had the courage to say the truth and accept my true feelings, knowing well that they may not be right. But, you know, I am a human being, and feel full range of human emotions. And these answers reflect feelings of many Tamilians (NOT ALL) whether they like it or not.